ApeironChaos
30s. She/Her. Polygenre-ous Reader. IDK why the curtains were blue, but I NEED to hear your theories! It's always that deep and reading IS political. FKA: acidicchaos 🌱🌷🐝
56643 points
3.86 average · 264 reviews
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DNF @ 10%. I'll give you two versions of my review. The first is going to be the simple, spoiler-free reasons why I DNF'd so early. Beneath the line I'm not going to worry about spoilers because I only read the first 5 chapters so I don't even know if you can call them spoilers, but I already know it's going to get ranty.
This is not the worst thing I have ever read and it very well could get better, but I could not make myself keep reading.
Simple Spoiler-Free Reasons I DNF'd
After the first 5 chapters (10%) of the book, each chapter had significant craft based issues. The physical staging/movement of the characters did not make sense - sometimes because they contradicted themselves, others are not physically possible even in a fantasy world. This repeatedly pulled me out of the story. If this happened once, it wouldn't have been a big deal but this happened in almost each of the 5 chapters I read.
There's also a lot of "worldbuilding" dropped mid-scene, right when tension should be building, which kept undercutting any momentum - like facing immediate life threatening danger, but Rubi's narration stops looking at the thing that is about to kill her to detail what another character is wearing, in detail, even though it's dark out and she has dropped her lantern, and that other character is "several yards away" and positioned physically behind her so she can't actually see the details. I say "worldbuilding" because really these were info dumps/lore drops. When the direct information isn't being told from Rubi's perspective, other characters sounded like NPCs, for example "I'm the one who trains you every morning, remember?"
Even though there was a ton of "worldbuilding", I never actually felt like I was learning anything because major concepts would be introduced and immediately dropped. For example, Rubi is reflecting on something at happened at a "Judgment" at the end of one chapter. The next chapter opens to describe what happened in great detail of this event as though we have gone back in time, but actually it's just Rubi remembering the event. Nowhere in the chapter do they actually call it the Judgment or a Judgment, they call it by many other things. After I decided to DNF, I decided to search the book and "Judgment" comes up once more at the 50% mark where is remembering the same thing. It never comes up again in the book.
These issues in the first 5 chapters makes me think the book really needed some more editing rounds before printing. I was given an ARC copy, so maybe these things were caught before final printing.
I read this so you don't have to extended version of why I DNF'd but I'm not going to worry about spoilers since I only made it 5 chapters anyway (an unhinged rant)
This book was compared to Fourth Wing meets Hunger Games, but I haven't read Fourth Wing and don't see the Hunger Games comparison except for maybe the "Judgment" event where it's gladiatorial slaughter of the Azures (the blue haired people, like Rubi) who are refugees from an "Annihilation" event. They are ruled by the Silvers - why? Because they are big and strong and not refugees? idk.
Here is everything I learned about Rubi Morningtail in the first 5 chapters: Rubi is in her early 20s, impoverished, and is a professional ribbon dancer (also dancing may or may not be illegal except the guy who would have arrested her for dancing was at the tavern too but it comes up like 3 chapters later that she could have been arrested for dancing...). Also, she has amnesia. I'm going to spare you from repeating it every other paragraph, but the book REALLY needs you to know she has NO MEMORIES AT ALL, except for the ones that are innate, and the ones that the scent of sandalwood reminds her of, and that she knows that she is definitely an orphan, and the dreams she has, BUT OTHER THAN THAT 0 MEMORIES. Nada. And her only goal in life is to have her memories back. Oh and she lives with the woman who found her after she "woke up" with amnesia on a boat.
Oh and she is HOT. Like hot hot. Like seduced half of the bar just by dancing, including her "friends with benefits" Quinn, who she doesn't want to have benefits with anymore, but she doesn't tell him that because that involves communicating to your friend. No, guys, I don't think you understand HOW HOT SHE IS. She is so hot that a leader of the Silvers (the people oppressing, enslaving, and killing The Azures which are her people) thinks she HAD to be something besides dancing because she she is sexy and her dancing is sexy but he has never been THIS attracted so someone before. What he doesn't know is that she is actually.... ALSO SINGING very quietly so no one can hear her and THATS how she is seducing everyone - magic singing!
That's all we learn in 5 chapters about our protagonist, the rest was "worldbuilding". I'm not being dramatic, I really can't think of anything else.
How do we know that Blake Axefire doesn't know that Rubi, a woman he has already nicknamed Songbird, is actually singing seductively not just dancing seductively and being hot? When he is chasing her on a giant magical tiger after she jumps of a cliff (more on that in a moment) they are having some fun banter and she accidentally slips up and says that she won't dance OR sing again if he doesn't arrest her and that's how he figures out she is singing. Wait - why would he call her Songbird if she was "just" dancing... when I think Songbird I think singing... hold that thought I'll come back to it.
Let's rewind a step right before she jumps off the cliff. Rubi goes out to get firewood and OH NO a giant magical god tiger warrior is outside her door. (Also, the book spells it tyger, but I refuse to do that - I'm already going insane from this book.) So she drops the wood AND HER LANTERN in the middle of the night in the woods. But DON'T WORRY our girl has fucking x-ray vision and she can see all. Okay, back to the tiger who is about to eat her, scary right? She's talking about how big it's teeth are and it's salivating - so she can only take her eyes off the scary tiger for just a second because she hears a males voice... in the middle of the woods... where it's just her hut apparently. AND GUESS WHOOOO It's Blake Axefire... again! I forgot to tell you he also assaulted her after the tavern because it literally doesn't matter besides there was some uncomfortable sexualization to the assault imo. The tldr: he tackled her to the ground AND a tree simultaneously (and here I thought the love triangle was going to between Quinn and Blake Axefire... not planes of existence) to look at her hands and then he let her go, called her Songbird, and left.
Anyway, back to scary killer giant god tiger! That's where Rubi's focus should be!! But now she feels Blake Axefire (yes I will be repeating his full name every time because it's a fucking stupid name, it's better than his title "Ambush Master") power and it. is. revolting. It's like a hurricane. She has to do everything in her power to not run. So here's Rubi - killer tiger who wants to eat her in front of her. Behind her by several yards is Blake Axefire and his terrible magic. She makes sure we know she cannot look away from the scary tiger who IS GOING TO EAT HER ANY SECOND! Ah! Wow some tension! Let's immediately undercut! So what random info dump do we get this time? DEETS ON BLAKE AXEFIRE'S OUTFIT OF COURSE. Is he (again) several yards behind her, in the dark, in a forest, at night, without her lantern, lit only by the moonlight? Yeah. But here is what Rubi is focused on instead of her immediate death, and I quote, "He stepped toward me, silent despite the weight of the midnight armor he now wore in place of his falsely tattered clothing. The silver veins across the onyx steel glinted in the moonlight, and the sigil on his chest--a coiled tyger in a diamond--gleamed. His fine cloak was fastened with a real tyger fang, a symbol of his favored status." Yas girl, clothes are my top priority in life, I feel ya on this. #relatable #OOTD
Anyway, that's when her adopted grandma figure comes out of the house and the tiger attacks her BUT even though she looks old and frail, grandma actually trains Rubi every morning so GRANDMA attacks the giant magical tiger with a broom! She even springs off the tiger's shoulder's over it's head, and I quote, "with agility". But then the tiger swipes grandma and she crunches against a well motionless.
So Rubi decides to get the tiger's attention again and right as it pounces on her SHE THROWS HER RIBBONS AT ITS FEET AND TANGLES IT GIANT PAWS! Giving her "mere seconds" to run. So then she runs to the edge of a cliff and blindly jumps off it into the dark. No. I'm not joking. She literally thinks, and I quote, "I didn't need to see. I knew exactly where the least steep path downward was. I'd mapped it by feel long ago. This part of the land was as familiar to me as my own hut. I loved heights--the higher the better. This was what I did when I woke in the middle of the night, shaking from dreams, though I could only remember the screams and fire. This was where I went when my chest ached from wanting answers I didn't have."*
Rubi, girlie pop, YOU JUST UNLOCKED A NEW MEMORY! You LOVED heights? You do remember things!
Anyway Blake Axefire chases her down on the tiger that he is technically doesn't control but also he is the leader of the tiger warriors or something, idk. So she throws her dagger at the tiger while running AND bantering with Blake Axefire. Mulitalented queen. Oh, where did the dagger come from? GREAT QUESTION because Blake Axefire actually knocked it out of her hands and it went "flying" when he sweep kicked her into the ground/against a tree. But our girl has telekinesis too so that just reappeared magically!
The dagger did... nothing. They catch her and he arrests her because that tiger... not only are all tigers under the King's protection, you actually get killed if you hurt any of them. Oopsies! But it gets WORSE! This isn't any old giant magic tiger. Nope! This is "the only tygress queen capable of breeding at the moment. She is the future of the royal Tyger Warriors. Her value is beyond price." Why is this actual queen out in the middle of a random forest right at the door of Rubi's hut? Great question. She just walked there, idk.
If she is so valuable why did Blake Axefire come alone to get her without any supplies or people to help him because the tigers don't listen to them even though he is the tiger warrior leader? idk.
This is when she accidentally reveals that she's working late, cause she's a singer and he hauls her off to jail or something. Idk cause I stopped there for my sanity.
And that's all 5 chapters!
This book is so predictable I'm willing to publicly state my guesses at 10% in
- Rubi is not an orphan, we are gunna find her parent/parents alive and well. It's gunna be someone you never suspected, maybe a bad guy or someone who looks like a bad guy
- Rubi's amnesia was caused by her parents to protect her when they fled from the annihilation thing. Why? I don't think Rubi is a demi-god so I'm guessing some kind of royalty or her family is important for some reason, maybe a prophecy. They wanted to keep Rubi safe when they fled and they thought it was best for her to not remember who she is. Also guessing once she breaks the amnesia her full powers will come out.
- Rubi and Blake Axefire are fated mates or something. That's how he knew to call her songbird before he knew about her singing magic. This is also why when she was facing the tiger and he showed up (you know the guy who is a leader of the group that oppresses "her people" and she watched him literally slaughter innocent people in the coliseum she couldn't decide if she felt, and I quote, "relieved or more terrified")
- It's a gimme but Blake Axefire is going to have an altruistic reason for why he is on the side of the oppressors because he has to be a good guy at least by the end of the series
- Rubi is not an Azure or at least not a full blooded Azure. Why? Her name is fucking Rubi. And when Blake Axefire slaughtered her people in the coliseum his cloak turned "crimson". I can't explain why my brain made the jump from that point... but it did. They also allude to her having some kind of special connection with her house cat (omg, wait don't actually count this one but it would be hilarious if one of her parents is the house cat hahah) Also her name is fucking Rubi but she is part of the blue haired people idk it just feels like something this book would do. Trust me on this.
Whoever reads this book, let me know how many I got right.
Okay, thanks y'all. I feel better now that this is out of my system!
My thanks to NetGalley and G.P. Putnam's Sons for the complimentary copy. All opinions are my own.
As someone deeply terrified of large bodies of water and the terrible, mysterious horrors that lurk just below the surface, I went into this one braced to be terrified, and it might be my favorite of Drews’ YA horror trio! Final Score: 4.8
What Worked Well For Me
The Prose I know some readers bounce off Drews’ prose, but I am here for it!! Similarly to Drews’ protagonists in their other YA gothic horror novels, our protagonist Jonathon feels very deeply and doesn’t always know how to explain those feelings (and even when they do, they feel misunderstood). The prose leans right into that! Drews clearly has a talent for maintaining their voice throughout each novel while changing verbiage to perfectly match the protagonist and the setting. Their writing consistently feels fresh - even when there is a concept that is almost universal, Drews puts their own spin on it in a very dark and delicious way.
The Horror I always enjoy Drews’ blend of psychological horror with elements of body horror, but this novel expanded their horror more clearly into the cosmic/eldritch horror. If you love Lovecraftian horrors, but hate Lovecraft’s ideals/ideology - this one is for you! (Pretty sure Lovecraft would be rolling in his grave over this book and I mean that as a compliment!) There was a big step up in the gore/body horror in this book compared to the other two books in this trio, but it fit the story so that’s not a complaint from me! I can’t mentally visualize things so I think I have an easier time with body horror, but there were a couple scenes in this book that still managed to get a little under my skin!
Fresh Waters I need to go back to re-read the other books in this trio at some point because I can’t tell if Drews has always been this funny or if they have gotten even funnier! It might sound strange to have more humor in such a dark novel, but it was jarring in a good way for me. It helped establish the chemistry between different characters which was very beneficial considering pretty much all of the relationships in this book are nuanced. I’ll also say, in general, this book just felt very fresh in many many ways. Beyond the darkness mixed with humor, there was a good blend of established monsters and new monsters, and the main conflict felt very fresh in a way that I can’t explain without risking slight spoilers. But even though I figured out a large part of the ending early, I was still incredibly invested in how everything was going to shake out!
The Representation There is queer-rep, autistic-rep, and mental illness-rep in this book and all three felt authentic. While there are some elements of Jonathan navigating their own sexuality and identity throughout this book, I love that these different aspects of representation are just allowed to exist within the novel instead of any of them feeling tokenized or forced.
Where It Fell Short For Me
My critiques are very minor.
Mild Repetition of Emotional States There is some repetition that I noticed in this book in particular outside of the intentional quick repetition that Drews uses to help highlight the stress and stakes of the situations Jonathon faces - that was not a problem for me at all. Instead, it was more like Drews kept coming back to describe the same emotional state in slightly different ways spread out over the course of a few pages. This is something that can get on my nerves quickly in a book and even though I hold more grace for this in YA novels - I’m happy to say that this did not get on my nerves at all! But it was noticeable so I wanted to mention it.
A Little Bit Heavy-Handed at Points Similarly, some of the messages felt slightly heavy-handed to me. The messages are well-crafted and important, so this could just stem from the fact that I’m an adult reading a YA novel with similar themes to the other novels in this trio, so your mileage may vary with this!
This isn’t a knock against the book, because A LOT happens in a relatively short novel, so even though the pacing and relationship dynamics throughout this book definitely worked, I wouldn’t have argued with a bit more time seeing how the different characters interacted with each other. (Okay, now that I’m writing this I realize this is actually just putting it out into the universe that if Drews wants to do a novella on this book, I would DIVE RIGHT IN!)
Final Thoughts, Opinions & Recommendations
This is a heavy-hitting book and I love that Drews’ doesn’t pull punches with their audience, however, this is a tough read because of how dark and heavy this one gets. I’ll be very curious to see how other readers receive this one in comparison to the others, because I don’t know if this was just darker and more emotional in general or if I found it darker and more emotional, because I identified with Jonathon even more than I have with Drews’ other protagonists.
After seeing some of the reception from Drews’ other books in this trio, there is one aspect that I wanted to touch on that’s just my personal opinion when it comes to how Drews writes autistic characters. If you don’t know Drews is autistic and I think this really matters in these books because of how Drews portrays "autistic monstrosity”. In my opinion, Drews is very intentional in (honestly, every aspect of their books) how they use monster metaphors to explore how autistic people are made to feel: misunderstood and otherized to the point of being monstrous. Autistic representation in books often falls at either end of the spectrum from what I’ve seen - callused, selfish monsters or magical superhero/innocent savant. So I can see why some readers might feel anxious when Drews uses these monster metaphors, but personally I love that Drews is taking back the power of “autistic monstrosity” and that these characters are complex, nuanced, morally gray, and just freaking real human beings!
Every reader is more than entitled to their own opinions and interpretations of any novel - full stop. I guess what I want to say here is that I’m just a little sad at how I’ve seen Drews’ work almost weaponized. I don’t read reviews before I write my own, but there is something extra sad about this book in particular and knowing some people are going to say that this book is harmful to the autistic community - I don’t want to say too much here, but if you read this I think you will see why it will feel even more like a gut punch for me at least.
As a final personal note, I will never forgive Drews for making me want a specific sea creature as a pet when I have literally had NIGHTMARES about that creature… but I need a baby one in my life now. Please!!!
You Might Like This If: I don’t know how to summarize this because I could gush about Drews for forever, but I would recommend this in particular to neurodivergents or really anyone from a stigmatized group who has felt otherized or made to feel like they are a monster simply for who they are. If you enjoy a modern spin on decadent gothic prose and navigating difficult situations with rich, complex characters, I think you’ll find a lot to love here. Also, for my fellow readers with thalassophobia - I won’t say you are not 100% safe in this book (it is a sea based horror novel after all), I was definitely more scared of the concept of how scary the ocean is rather than how Drews ultimately used the ocean specifically as a core horror element. I literally cannot even jump into the deep end of a swimming pool with my ex-lifeguard husband being there to catch me and I was fine 99.5% of the time thalassophobia wise.
You Might NOT Like This If: If body horror/gore is a no go for you, I think this would be very rough - there is more gore in this one than in Don’t Let the Forest In and Hazelthorn so if those were borderline for you, please proceed with caution. I’ll link the author’s supplied content disclosures here, but if you do not like reading depictions of child abuse/violence done to children, I would really hesitate to recommend this one to you. If you aren’t a fan of gothic “purple prose”, want your protagonists to be morally perfect heroes, or hate ambiguity in stories, you likely won’t have as good of a time with this one as I did!
My thanks to NetGalley & Macmillan Children’s Publishing Group for the complimentary copy. Scorpion Deep is available now! All opinions are my own.
TL;DR
Would I Recommend it? Yes - as long as you are okay with body horror and reading about darker/heavy topics Would I Reread it? Yes! Would I Read More From This Author? Drews is an automatic buy for me! Series Information: True standalone, set within the same universe as Don’t Let The Forest In and Hazelthorn, however, the nods to those books are not intrusive at all! If you read this one first, you wouldn’t notice the nods at all imo.
Star Score Breakdown
Personal Enjoyment: 5 Overall Execution: 4.75 Craft & Writing Quality: 4.75 Characters: 4.75 Plot: 4.75 Final Score: 4.8
A character driven literary novel with a sex scene frequency bordering on erotica, but this book was a more honest portrayal about desire, romantic relationships, and friendship than most other books I’ve read. I did not expect to love a book about the sex lives of 65+ year old ladies as much as I did! Final Score: 4.7
What Worked Well For Me
A trusted friend who knows my reading taste recommended this book to me and when that happens I don’t even read the blurb. I ended up binging this book within the day! It wasn’t until I was like halfway through this book that I read the tagline on the cover “It’s never too late to have great sex” and trust me - that needed no explanation - this book starts out with a bang, literally.
I love books with older protagonists, and these women felt like real women navigating very complex situations. Throughout the story these ladies have to face issues in their marriages, ex-husbands, grief, regret, bodies that don’t move like they used to - but their very touching friendship with one another is the ultimate throughline for me. It would be my greatest wish to have friendships like what these ladies have in their late 60s-70s. I don’t want this to come off as a fantasy aspect though, their friendship felt very real and earned! Arden had little quirks for each of the women that not only kept them distinct from one another, but made each character feel very fleshed out. I am begging for more authors and publishers to give us books that feature realistic, complex, nuanced, and at times even messy female protagonists like the ones we have in this book!! And bonus points for them being older protagonists!!
Even though a lot of this book is about these women’s sex lives and navigating their own sexuality, the core of it was about relationships between the women, their partners, their community and how they all intersect. Arden found a good balance between all of the story lines, so I didn’t notice any character was taking up too much page time or missing in action.
In some literary novels, you really need to have patience - I don’t think most readers are going to have to have much patience. I think you’ll know right away if this book might be a good fit for you. The pace felt very steady throughout the entire book.
Alright, let’s talk about these ladies sex lives because I know y’all are curious - I was too! I want to be very clear that the many scenes either talking about sex in explicit terms or are an explicit scene aren’t a critique from me or the primary selling point here, but I do have some praise around these scenes. This is just something I want you to know before you start this book. The frequency of these scenes was getting pretty close to erotica levels imo, but in erotica the explicit scenes often feel like they are the main goal of the book and that is NOT the case here. The themes these women are working through are explored through the lens of their sex lives/sexuality, so I never felt like a sex scene was there for shock value or, frankly, to get the reader off. However, I do want to give kudos here because these scenes were some of the most refreshingly honest sex scenes I have ever read and I read a lot of romance. There are a lot of different kinds of sex depicted in this book: vanilla sex, public sex, masturbation, swinging and infidelity, and more. So much so I felt like double the prude of any of these women even though I’m half their age! I did not expect to blush as much as I did throughout this book, but also given the number of sex scenes in this book I also didn’t cringe as much as I would have expected to. (And I mean this as a compliment!)
I also want to mention the prose since this is a literary novel - sometimes I go into literary novels for exemplary prose and while I wouldn’t say there is a particular literary flourish to the prose here, it’s clean, solid, and very bingeable (clearly). But I don’t think that was the point of this book - the characters, their relationships, and their situations were what kept me hooked, and particularly for a debut novel I was very impressed!
Where It Fell Short For Me
My critiques are very minor and might really come down to personal preference.
Some of the sex scenes use euphemisms like “girl parts” or “love button” and if these are used too frequently it will kill a book for me. Thankfully, these euphemisms were used relatively sparingly, however they were juxtaposed with plenty of frank terminology (which I have no problem reading but won’t be putting in a public review), so jumping to a euphemism felt a little odd. My guess is that with this many scenes maybe Arden was worried about overusing certain terms, but personally I would take repetition over euphemisms.
This is more of a missed opportunity in my opinion, but Catherine’s ex-husband is probably the only side character I would call pretty flat. Since this is post-divorce and told from the perspective of three loyal friends, it makes sense that he would be painted as purely a villain, but it would have been nice to humanize him a little.
A couple of small heads up for readers: 1 This is set in 3rd person POV, but the protagonists often switch within a single chapter - it was always very clear to me who we were following even with the switches, but I know some readers really prefer one chapter per character so I wanted to flag it. It might also cause a little confusion as you are just getting to know these ladies. 2 The blurb references their weekly lunches which almost gives me a “sitcom” feeling, like we get our weekly catch up and then come back next week. That’s not what happens here, we are following these ladies as they live their lives and we see them gather for lunch regularly. Along a similar vein, there are also some small time jumps were multiple weeks have passed - it’s totally fine in the narrative, but it conflicted with the weekly lunches in the blurb so I wanted to flag it.
Audiobook Experience
I tandem read this one and while you can definitely pick your preferred format, I really enjoyed the audiobook in particular! It’s narrated by Susan Bennet who delivers a FANTASTIC performance!! While I wouldn’t say the protagonists' voices were super different from each other, between the text and Bennett’s narration choices, it was always very clear who was speaking. Where I think Bennet really shined was how she was able to channel each of the characters and adapt to the scenes in a very balanced way where the audio was elevated above straight narration without going overboard with it either. There are some really funny moments in this novel and Bennett definitely helped those moments land, but I also want to highlight that they helped the sex scenes land too. Sometimes when a narrator really acts during sex scenes it can make things more awkward for me than when I’m just reading the scene myself, however, Bennett found a great balance here as well! There were moments where they would emphasize certain words or change the breathiness of their dialogue that worked really well!
Audio quality wise, this audiobook is solid! I didn’t even notice any volume changes from edits! No technical glitches either!
A tip with the audiobook: I’m very pale and when I blush, I'm practically a lobster. With how frequent the sex scenes are, if you also go beet red when you blush, maybe don’t listen to this one in public.
Final Thoughts, Opinions & Recommendations
This would be a FANTASTIC pick for a book club, assuming your book club is comfortable talking about sex scenes. I 100% see why my friend really wanted me to read this one, not only was it a great match for me, I fully see why you really really want to talk about this one with your girlfriends in particular! This book gave me so much to chew on and even though there were a few moments where I was a smidge uncomfortable or cringed, 99% of the time this book was very, very refreshing!! I wish more books handled these “taboo” topics with such love, joy, and care!
You Might NOT Like This If: You tend to skip sex scenes in books - I won’t say that’s impossible with this one, but you’d be missing a lot since the themes are explored through those scenes. You are looking for just a gentle cozy comedy about older women - my friend who recommended this described this as Spicy Golden Girls and I really want to emphasize the spicy aspect of that description. You read literary fiction specifically for innovation, beautiful prose - the prose is solid, but the character work is the driving factor here.
Recommendations - Kind Of
- The frankness and honesty of these women talking about their sexual desires reminded me a bit of Want by Gillian Anderson which is non-fiction. Admittedly, I actually had to put that one down because it was too much for me personally. Both books felt empowering and refreshing while exploring women’s sexuality
- Characterwise: These ladies reminded me of Sybil from The Correspondent by Virgina Evans at points (but thematically, pretty different books) and their friendship, humor, and “just because you’re old doesn’t mean your life is over” vibe reminded me of the cast from The Thursday Murder Club by Richard Osman (obviously, very different genre).
- The book also comps to All Fours by Miranda July, which I actually paused very early on because it felt like it was a bit too much - but I always planned on coming back to that one. So if you’ve read that one, you might have better expectations going into this one than I did.
- One I haven’t read, but I have on my TBR - this book reminded me of Three Women by Lisa Taddeo or at least what I’ve heard about it!
A final personal note with this one: This book was a bold choice for a debut and I respect the hell out of Arden for this!! This book instantly made them very memorable for me and I’ll definitely be keeping an eye out for any future work from them!! I said this at the top of the review, but I really want to emphasize I am begging authors and publishers to give us more books like this!!!
My thanks to NetGalley & Taag & Rohg for the complimentary copy. The Pleasures of the Other is set to publish on 11/9/26. All opinions are my own.
TL;DR
Would I Recommend it? Yes if you can handle the spice! Would I Reread it? I’m not the biggest re-reader, but I would definitely consider re-reading this one. Would I Continue the Series/Read More From This Author? YES! Spice Level: 5 Erotic/Blazing - Books that feature multiple, highly detailed or adventurous scenes throughout. These can include explicit erotica elements, multiple partners, toys, or BDSM, where the physical connection takes center stage. Series Information: True Standalone
Star Score Breakdown
Personal Enjoyment: 4.75 Overall Execution: 4.75 Craft & Writing Quality: 4.25 Characters: 5 Plot: 4.75 Final Score: 4.7
Edit: Why do I always find a typo as soon as I post? I swear I DO re-read these!
Also, while I'm here shout out to @lukewarmreader for recommending this one! 🔗 Link to their review of this book here
Hi Everyone!
Pagebound works a little differently than other social media platforms and has a lot going on! There are book forums, Pagebound Club, activity cards, quests, lists, etc and nobody arrives knowing how all of it fits together. Even as someone who has been on the platform for over a year, I still have questions! I'm a pretty shy person, but the Pagebound community has given me the confidence to post publicly - however as someone who usually silently lurks on platforms/hides in the corner at gatherings, I know first hand how scary it can be to post publicly particularly on a forum like Pagebound Club!
My Goal With This Post
So I wanted to create a space where anyone can ask anything Pagebound related: how features work, where something should be posted, what a badge means, how to find people to read with, etiquette you're unsure about, what in the world does yoink mean? No question is too basic! Whether you joined this week or you've been here longer than me, you're welcomed here.
Before You Ask
@Dorou made a fantastic PB Club Discussion Master List with frequently recurring topics! You can find that post here: 🔗 https://pagebound.co/posts/214110
Pagebound also has a FAQ section (Link to the FAQ section here: 🔗 https://support.pagebound.co/FAQ) and the Content Guide (Link to the Content Guide Post here: 🔗 https://support.pagebound.co/content_guide) -> These are the official answers from PB founder's/devs (jenniferPagebound & lucyPagebound).
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Option 1: Comment your question below. Please only comment one question per comment to make answering your question(s) easier. Option 2: Ask anonymously through this short Google Form 🔗 https://forms.gle/KHX7LNvAJiMV5nKZA Right now my plan is to collect questions over the coming days (posting this on November 4th) and then make a follow up post/reply where I compile the questions anonymously on your behalf in batches. I don't know everything and also I don't want to be responsible for answering every question, instead I'm hoping to have the PB community all work together on this! I have turned off "collect emails" on this form everywhere I could find them, but I don't know if Google makes that clear when you get to the form so you might just have to trust me here.
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1 Assume good faith. Everyone here is learning. 2 If a question isn't for you, please scroll past it 3 Disagreeing with an answer is totally fine; let's just keep it kind and focused on the question and never an individual person. I will shut this whole thing down if people start bullying or dogpiling on others. (Please read that in a stern parent "I will turn this car around" voice) 4 Please don't post book spoilers in your question or reply. I'm begging you! I really really hate spoilers!! 5 I'm not a moderator, I have no insider knowledge, and I don't know the founders/devs and the same goes for anyone in the community who answers questions. We are just users and our answers aren't official! To report something, use the ... menu (Flag / Summon PB Guide) or email team@pagebound.co 6 If your question involves a potential feature suggestion and you want community input/feedback on it before suggesting it. That's fine! However, anyone can submit feature requests regardless of Royalty status. If you have a Royalty membership (pay a monthly/annual fee or are gifted Royalty by another user), submit your idea on the roadmap (🔗 link to road map here: https://pagebound.co/roadmap) If you do not have Royalty membership Submit your feedback/idea here: 🔗 https://airtable.com/appRaBZZlRoMkRDrc/pagnQ5pLzczEFZu4T/form OR go to the "Contact us" link at the bottom of the webpage or using the hamburger (three line) menu in the app -> Contact us
I have a few questions myself, so I'll kick things off in the comments!
Edited to Add:
💌 = Comments from me with this symbol at the start are questions that were asked anonymously through the google form. These may be a combination of several questions and the phrasing may be slightly modified from the original question either for clarity, to remove identifiable information, or to encompass similar questions 💌🔒 = Comments from me with these symbols at the start are questions that are asked anonymously, but I'm using my best judgement and saying this/these questions should be reserved for Jennifer & Lucy if they see this post and want to answer any part of that question. By locking the question I am not making any judgements on the user asking OR saying these questions are not worth discussing. My goal for this thread is for community members to answer questions for other users voluntarily - I don't want anyone to feel forced to answer any question and that includes J+L. I can't actually "lock" replies here, so this is part of the good faith/community effort aspect behind this thread.
I know when threads get a lot of comments, it becomes difficult to navigate, but I also don't want to stifle any conversations!! So here's what I'm thinking: I'm going to save the other anonymously submitted questions for the next round of this (not sure on the timeline, very open to ideas/feedback - feel free to use the google form if you have ideas/feedback or share it under my recent status update so we don't add more comments here). This does not mean you shouldn't post your own questions - I want to reserve the rest of the thread for anyone who feels comfortable posting their questions publicly! If you don't want to post publicly, just add your question to the google form and it will be in the next round! (I'll also circle back to this thread, if there are any publicly asked questions that didn't get answered - I'll put them in the next round too!)
For everyone who has asked questions (publicly or anonymously), answered questions, upvoted people's questions/answers- Thank you!!! I love this community so much and this thread has been such a great example of how wonderful this community can be!! 💜💜💜
I have always been a big fan of fantasy books and as I have gotten older, I have also fallen in love with romance books - so romantasy should be a heavier hitter on my top reads. Unfortunately, a large portion of the romantasy books I have tried have fallen flat for me to the point I'm now skeptical of most romantasy books and I haven't been able to figure out why until now.
This week, I listened to a podcast interview with a romantasy author and I haven't been able to stop thinking about it, because it started to crystallize something that has been bothering me about traditional publishing for a while.
The Interview I want to be clear, this isn't about one author. This is about what major publishers are choosing to acquire and amplify, and what I think that says about where traditional publishing might be heading. However, I think it's important to highlight the examples given in this interview as "evidence" of my theory. And to be honest, this interview made me personally not want to attempt another book from this author, so I wanted share so others could make informed decisions.
The podcast was Off the Shelf with Morgann Book interviewing Jasmine Mas in the fall of 2025 after her traditionally published release of Blood of Hercules and just before the release of her second book in the series Bonds of Hercules. Link to full video podcast on Youtube here
Throughout the interview, we learn a bit about Jasmine Mas's impressive background - I mean that sincerely. Not only does she have her classics degree from Georgetown, she did so on a full ride! She also had a full-ride for law school before working for a few years at a top-10 law firm, and now has a multi-book deal with HarperCollins for her Greek mythology retellings. On paper, this sounds like someone uniquely qualified to write mythological fiction.
However, during a "Greek Myth Trivia" segment on the podcast, the results surprised me. She didn't know that Apollo and Artemis were twins, confused Atlas with Kronos, and - despite one of her main characters being Charon/Kharon, ferryman of the River Styx - couldn't remember if she'd included the River Styx in her own book.
Her explanation? "Mine is like ancient history knowledge... not necessarily like deep Greek mythology." Despite her branding including her four years of studying classics, the actual myths she's retelling weren't her academic focus. She also noted in the interview that she doesn't research Greek gods beyond the ones she's currently writing about.
I want to be fair - we all blank. These moments alone surprised me, but I chalked it up to being caught off guard in the moment. But her skim-reading revelation made it so I won't attempt reading her books again. That's when it clicked.
Punished for Paying Attention She described herself as a "skim-reader", which is not a term I'd associate with any author, let alone a Big Five Publisher author. "I'm like one of those readers where I'm like a fast reader but like to like skim read." She designs her books accordingly: short paragraphs, frequent breaks, punchy chapters - because "I like to skim so I don't like see stuff as much."
When she drafts, she admits it's "not precise" because she types quickly and drafts fast. She relies on extensive editing to "try to catch it," but she's editing in the same skim-reading style.
And HarperCollins, seeing her self-published book hit #1 on Amazon, reached out the same day to acquire it.
The skim-reading admission made something click. In books where I couldn't DNF them (book club, reading challenge, ARC review, etc) I've felt like I'm being punished for paying attention. I noticed when the worldbuilding contradicted itself, character motivations shifted without explanation, and details from early in the book vanished without a trace. Even as an ARC reader - why am I the one catching these things right before publication?
This podcast made me realize that I might be bringing the "wrong" reading style to these books. These books were designed for inattention.
Mas specifically mentions having "brain rot" from TikTok, which reminded me of reports from the TV industry: writers are allegedly being told to craft scripts that still work for viewers scrolling on their phones during episodes. As someone who absolutely does this with TV, I understood the adaptation to viewer behavior (even if it makes me sad and embarrassed).
But I'd never considered that this was happening with books.
After this interview, I started looking into the skim-reader market. I learned that "vibes over craft" is not only some readers' preferences, but in self-publishing it can be a strong business model. Plenty of Kindle Unlimited authors have built successful careers giving readers exactly what they want: fast, tropey, emotionally satisfying stories that don't require careful attention.
But that's not what I thought traditional publishing was for.
What I Thought Traditional Publishing Meant Here's what I believed traditional publishing promised (from a reader's perspective):
- Professional vetting for consistency and craft
- Developmental editing to strengthen weaknesses
- A quality threshold beyond "it sold well on Amazon" or "it has a lot of readers on AO3"
The author brings raw talent and the publisher refines their work into something that earns a place on their backlist.
But Mas didn't get her HarperCollins deal because editors saw potential to develop. She got it because her self-pub numbers proved the market existed. They reached out the same day her book hit #1 and from her interview, she just had to "turn [the Amazon print on demand version] off." The question shifted from "Is this good?" to "Did this already sell?"
I'll admit, as a reader, I'm probably naive to a lot of aspects of traditional publishing and maybe it's always been this way. But it feels like traditional publishers aren't interested in discovering and developing talent - they're acquiring pre-validated products and just scaling them for wider distribution.
A Race to the Bottom Here's what bothers me the most: This creates a race to the bottom that redefines what readers should expect.
When a major publisher puts their credibility behind books designed for skim-reading, they're telling readers: Don't expect consistency. Don't pay close attention unless you want to be disappointed. Speed and virality (aka profits) matter more than craft.
And they're telling their authors: Precision doesn't sell. TikTok metrics beat editorial judgment. We reward authors who produce quantity over quality. Your classics degree is just branding, not a craft foundation you should honor.
I swear, this isn't about being a snob or gatekeeping who gets to be published. If anything, I want more people to have access to the support of traditional publishing to refine their raw talent for more diverse stories (but that pesky capitalism gotta capitalism). This is about what we lose when traditional publishing - that I thought stood for literary quality - decides that attention is obsolete.
What Self-Publishing Does Better Self-publishing is actually the perfect home for "vibes over craft" romantasy. Authors have complete creative control. Readers self-select and understand the author did not have a full publishing house to support them with resources. The market determines success directly, without institutional gatekeeping.
If this series had stayed self-published, I wouldn't have anything negative to say - even if these books aren't for me personally. That's the beauty of self-publishing: it creates space for every reading preference without the false promises about editorial standards.
But when traditional publishers acquire successful self-pub books without adding editorial value - when they're just distribution at scale - they're abandoning the only thing that differentiated them from Amazon's algorithm.
TL;DR If HarperCollins gives multi-book deals to authors who publicly admit they skim-read their own work, if TikTok metrics or AO3 reads matter more than editorial judgment, what does traditional publishing stand for anymore?
More importantly: Why should I trust their curation of anything else?
I'm not arguing Mas shouldn't be published. I'm not saying readers are wrong for wanting fast, tropey books. Hell, I won't shut up about the alien cowboy husband series I'm reading on Kindle Unlimited right now!
I'm asking what we lose when the last major institution claiming to stand for literary qualities decides that reader attention is obsolete.
Because from where I'm sitting, "good enough for TikTok" has become the new publishing standard. And I don't think we've fully reckoned with what that means.
End of my rant - I would love to hear what you think!
Okay, so - funny story! I got called into Management's office and they informed me that they're launching a Full Scale Celebration Audit, because apparently a "disturbing number" of you have received a Fever Dreams badge, but you never got your badge reward from Management... oooooooops my bad!!!!!!!
I would like to state for the record that this is not entirely my fault! This place is a literal labyrinth and I don't have the best sense of direction anyway and the flamingos asked me to join their conga line that one time and then I got distracted by the cotton candy clouds because I was hungry because the statues ate all the pizza rolls in the breakroom and... well, it doesn't matter because Management did not care about my excuses!
Good news - I found out they can't fire me! Apparently my contract was "eternally binding" and signed in "unbreakable ink"?? The gargoyles called it a "curse", but I'm pretty sure it's just job security!
Bad news - They can make my existence a living nightmare. If I fail the audit they told me I might be reassigned to lead group therapy with the infinite hallway's carnivorous plants or worse reassigned to Whimsical Filing, which is entirely run by the cosmic snails and you know how judgmental they can be!!
So, I need your help!! If you have gotten a Fever Dreams & Strange Realities badge (or leveled up your Fever Dreams badge) and DIDN'T get a comment from me about your Celebratory Reward from Management (and you want one) can you drop a comment below so I can clear up some of this backlog before the auditors arrive??
I'm not sure when the audit going to start, but there has been a very stern looking goose following me since the meeting and they keep tapping this hourglass thing and I have a feeling it has invisible sand counting down to their arrival... so whenever you see this if you wanna leave a comment, I will be eternal grateful!!
Forever (literally) your humble servant helping make all of your fever dreams come true, acidicchaos Head of Congratulatory Chaos Department Fever Dreams & Strange Realities, Inc.
content warning for mentions of stalking, manipulation, assault, rape, coercive control, abuse, and the romanticization of the aforementioned.
I'd like to start off by saying I am aromantic and not much of a romance reader myself (although I don't mind a romance subplot if it's done well), so I'm asking this as an outsider to the genre. I first remember hearing the term "dark romance" as a teenager, and at that point it seemed to refer to any romance book that featured and romanticized stalking, manipulation, assault, rape, coercive control, or other abuses between the protagonist and their (usually her) love interest. Books like Twilight, 50 Shades of Gray, and Throne of Glass come to mind for me first when I hear the term, although I know that they are probably a bit too out-of-date to meaningfully represent the genre today.
Lately, I've been seeing more and more conversation about dark romance, and in particular I've seen more and more people say that "real" dark romance does not involve any abuse or assault between the romantically-involved characters. If that is the case, then what distinguishes a dark romance from a regular romance? Is this a popular position among dark romance readers or a controversial one? Is there a different genre title for books that do feature abuse or rape (and to be clear, here I am referring to specifically abuse and rape, not impact play or consensual non-consent or any other kink) in a romanticized or eroticized way?
ApeironChaos commented...
Hello - reader with aphantasia here! If I focus really really hard, I can "see" outlines of stationary objects for a second or two, but that's about the extent of it - but it never comes up when reading.
The best way I can describe to people who can visualize is that I'm more of a conceptual thinker. A super simple example would be I know what an apple looks like, I can describe it to you, or draw it (although I'm personally a terrible artist so please don't ask me to draw!) but I never see it in my head. I remember seeing a study that people with aphantasia are more drawn to the sciences because we are already conceptual thinkers.
I think I'm a bit jealous of people who can visualize particularly with reading but there are some upsides imo - since I'm focused on just the words, I tend to pick up on plot, structure, clues, themes, etc, pretty quickly. Now that I think about it, aphantasia is probably the reason I'm super interested in symbolism - because then the descriptions of people/things are more conceptual. And I catch a lot of continuity errors - if something isn't explained "logically" it becomes really jarring for me as a reader (very useful skill when I was beta reading regularly).
I know I have talked with a few people with aphantasia on PB, so you may get some more responses but happy to answer any questions if this doesn't make any sense haha
i had this eye-opening discussion with some friends some time ago and finishing a book today prompted me to think about it again.
i'm someone who is a very visual person in general and have a strong (perhaps even over-active) imagination. whenever i read a book, i tend to visualize the setting/action/characters/etc. which is why i tend to prefer books that have very imagery/atmosphere-forward prose.
however, apparently there are people out there who do NOT visualize what they read as they read it and instead just see words on the page and nothing else. there's no image in their head that the words create.
i would love to know which one of these everyone identifies with! if you are in the latter camp, please tell me more! i still have a hard time wrapping my head around what that kind of reading experience is like.
Also, if anyone has any scientific/neurological insights on this, i would love to hear them.
ApeironChaos commented...
I just found out about an organization called Lasagna Love! It's a nonprofit, grassroots movement providing neighbors with homemade lasagna deliveries in the US, Canada, Australia, and the UK!! You can request one for yourself or nominate someone else to receive one! This has nothing to do with the books in this list, but it reminded me of this list and I wanted to spread the word! (My aunties will be thrilled to learn I'm finally going to embrace my Italian roots and actually learn how to make lasagnas now!)
Important note: Be very careful with typing in the URL!! I accidentally spelled lasagna wrong the first time and whatever website I went to instantly tried to download something on my computer (incredibly rude!!!) - I think plain URL links work now but I'm going to post both versions to be safe!
URL: https://lasagnalove.org/ Same link but in markdown format
Literary Lasagna - Give Them Time to Cook
These are books that don't rush to impress you. They simmer while the author adds in the layers. They may confuse you or bore you at first - but if you give them time to cook you'll end up with a delicious meal of a book!
Always taking recommendations! If you are recommending a series - the layers need to come together by the end of the first book (not half way through the series).
© 2025 Pagebound
ApeironChaos commented...
Hi! Dark romance reader here! I figured I would pop in and give some of my thoughts on the subgenre - but I'm not an expert here by any means! To my knowledge, there isn't a universally accepted "definition" of dark romance and I'll be honest I kinda have beef with genres as a whole personally. (also I'm using OP's content warnings above - so please take care of yourself if you choose to read my response)
As for what makes dark romance different than other romance subgenres: imo the core of it comes down to the potential harm comes from within the relationship. So let's use a very generic plot of heroine gets kidnapped. In a fantasy, thriller, or other romance, the other protagonist/love interest would be the one saving the heroine, but in dark romance the love interest is the kidnapper.
Slight tangent here: You mentioned not be a romance reader so I want to give some background context. For a book to be a romance the couple must have a happily ever after (HEA) or a happy for now (HFN) ending. Before I read romance novels, I viewed this as a flaw in the genre - what's the point of reading a book if you know how it's going to end? I have since changed my stance on this now that I have actually given romance a chance (it's my top read genre for the last 2 years) and I see it as a benefit! Because you know the couple is going to be happy (in some way at least) in the end, so authors have even more room to "play" before you get to the ending.
So in other genres where there is a villainous love interest or protagonist, I might DNF a book if that character is crossing my personal lines - but in romance I already know the couple must end up happy in the end. Even as a dark romance reader, I might still DNF if it crosses my personal thresholds, but I go into them knowing I'm most likely going to be engaging in dark themes or taboos. So it's like my threshold of tolerance is higher than in other genres because I'm mentally prepared, but personally I don't seek out books with dubious consent, non-consent, or consensual non consent. But by nature of some of the themes/topics, I go in knowing it may come up - so I can check the content warnings (a staple in this subgenre, also shoutout to romance.io, booktriggerwarnings.com, and triggerwarningdatabase.com) or I DNF without any guilt. I don't say this to yuck someone's yum by any means, I more so mean to illustrate you can be a dark romance fan separately from those elements. Across genres, I love mortally gray/villainous heroes, investigating taboo topics, and I just prefer darker themes overall which is why dark romance appeals to me but those aren't exclusive to dark romance.
After reading through this thread, there is one additional thing I want to add, but I'm technically deviating from your original post. I'm not a therapist or counselor, but I am 40 hours trained and have volunteered with my local rape crisis counseling organization for over a decade including ongoing continued education. Dark romance can be an great tool to help survivors heal from trauma. Not for everyone, of course, but regardless if someone is a survivor, if they are okay with reading about rape or seek out stories that have rape in them that does not mean that they are a bad person or endorse/romanticize rape by any means. Liking this genre doesn't tell you anything about the person OR their values. There is a TON of rape scenes throughout all genres, but if someone says they love Game of Thrones for example we don't make sweeping assumptions about them or the genre they read.
I think horror is the best genre comparison I can make here - we don't assumes a horror fan endorse home invasions, stalking, etc or someone that loves slasher movies wants to stab/murder someone. With horror, we understand that horror readers want to feel fear inside a container they control - at any point they can close the book - dark romance runs on the same logic to me. Dark romance readers want to safely and vicariously feel fear, obsession, powerfulness or powerlessness, being wanted past the point of reason, taboo situations, etc.
Unsurprisingly if you know me, this has turned into a full essay - so I'll stop here, but happy to keep the conversation going if anyone wants!